S3 E36: Episode 100: Our Most Talked-About Topics: Should I Leave My Marriage? Divorce, Narcissists & Co-Parenting

Should I get a divorce? Wondering if you should stay or leave your marriage? This episode covers divorce advice for women, co-parenting with a narcissist, and signs your marriage is over.

It’s our 100th episode and we’re diving into the question so many people ask: Is my marriage really over? From cheating and emotional burnout to divorcing a narcissist or starting over as a single mom — we’ve heard it all. This one’s all about the hard truths, the unexpected laughs, and the reality of what happens when a relationship ends.

We also talk about what to do before divorce, how to survive divorce emotionally, and the toxic relationship signs you should never ignore. If you're stuck, scared, or searching for answers, this is for you.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed by our podcast guest are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the hosts or the podcast. We value diverse perspectives and aim to provide a platform for thoughtful discussion and exploration of different ideas.

Got any comments, suggestions or queries? We'd love to hear from you! DM us on Instagram @dirty.laundry.podcast to be featured on one of our upcoming episodes.

Also, don't forget to rate and review our show on your favourite podcast player.

Transcript

Amanda Silver
00:00 - 00:03
I'm Alex Howard. And I'm Amanda Silver. And this is Dirty Laundry. 

Alex Howard
00:11 - 00:22
And this is our 100 episode. We did it. Cue the applause. Do you remember when we sat there in that coffee shop and I said, Hi, Amanda, friend who I've just 

Amanda Silver
00:22 - 00:22
met, who I want 

Alex Howard
00:22 - 00:26
to be besties with. I want to do a podcast. You want to do it with me. 

Amanda Silver
00:26 - 00:31
I was like, yeah, I'm in. But I've never listened to a podcast before. This was like two 

Alex Howard
00:31 - 00:38
and a half, three years ago, maybe? Our podcast is really the first one you both did and listened to. No, I think I listened to a few before. 

Amanda Silver
00:38 - 00:47
Did I make you? I'm like, I gotta listen to this. I gotta do some market research before, you know, I actually get in front of my... Fully committing, yeah. Yes, yes. But no, we... Yeah. 

Alex Howard
00:48 - 00:52
Can we just do a bit of nostalgia for a minute? Love it. So 

Amanda Silver
00:52 - 00:54
remember those early days in my closet? 

Alex Howard
00:54 - 00:58
And we were so nervous that we had to have margaritas first to 

Alex Howard
00:58 - 00:59
get a little bit of liquid Margaritas. 

Alex Howard
01:00 - 01:04
And then we started recording at like 10 a.m. And I'm like, margarita time. It was so fun. 

Amanda Silver
01:04 - 01:05
We 

Alex Howard
01:05 - 01:05
should have had margaritas for 

Amanda Silver
01:05 - 01:08
this episode. No, we're too professional now. 

Alex Howard
01:09 - 01:09
Now we're really. 

Amanda Silver
01:10 - 01:14
I know. We don't need it anymore. We don't. We're just that good. It just 

Alex Howard
01:14 - 01:15
took us a long time to get here. 

Amanda Silver
01:15 - 01:19
I mean, 100 episodes is a lot. It's a lot. A lot of commitment. Yeah. It's a 

Alex Howard
01:19 - 01:23
lot of work. Yeah. And consistently. We have done three seasons. 

Alex Howard
01:24 - 01:25
Three seasons. 

Alex Howard
01:26 - 01:33
100 episodes. I would like to take this opportunity to say thank you. A to you. 

Alex Howard
01:33 - 01:36
How freaking cute are you? Number one for saying yes 

Alex Howard
01:36 - 01:40
and coming on this road with me. Number two for Ryan, our amazing producer. 

Alex Howard
01:40 - 01:42
We love you, Ryan. We love you. You always make 

Alex Howard
01:42 - 01:53
us look and sound good. And number three are incredible guests. Like we just randomly reach out to folks who we find interesting, inspiring, have something to share 

Alex Howard
01:53 - 01:53
with this community. 

Alex Howard
01:55 - 02:02
And more than not, they say yes. They are just coming here, giving up an hour of their time to talk about divorce. 

Alex Howard
02:03 - 02:03
Not the easiest, 

Alex Howard
02:03 - 02:22
you know, conversation to have. And they do it and they keep showing up for us. And then my final shout out are amazing listeners. It's my absolute favorite when we get texts just being like, oh, I loved this point of view or what a great, you know, guest or thanks for saying the thing that nobody wants to say. Like, or I'm not alone. 

Amanda Silver
02:23 - 02:24
I'm not alone. They experience 

Alex Howard
02:24 - 02:24
this too. 

Amanda Silver
02:25 - 02:27
Yeah. Like that to me is the magic of what we do. 

Alex Howard
02:28 - 02:28
I really feel 

Amanda Silver
02:28 - 02:30
like that warms my heart is when 

Alex Howard
02:30 - 02:30
we 

Amanda Silver
02:30 - 02:35
reach somebody just with like just a little snippet of advice or 

Alex Howard
02:35 - 02:36
someone's story 

Amanda Silver
02:36 - 02:42
and it resonates with them. That to me is like it's so powerful. It's so powerful. So what a platform we have 

Alex Howard
02:42 - 02:44
and a privilege it is for us to 

Amanda Silver
02:44 - 02:44
be able to do that. 

Alex Howard
02:44 - 02:50
And you've had some very fun like celebrity adjacent run-ins, which is also very 

Amanda Silver
02:50 - 02:51
fun. I 

Alex Howard
02:51 - 02:52
did. I had one a few weeks ago. 

Amanda Silver
02:52 - 02:54
Tell us. No, I'm 

Alex Howard
02:54 - 02:55
embarrassed. I'll do it. 

Amanda Silver
02:55 - 03:16
okay fine okay okay if if you know if you make me so i was at an event with a bunch of my friends and we were all sitting around the bar it was like a i don't it was a fundraiser for something anyways this woman comes up to me at the bar and she's like hi she's like a friend of mine recognized you from your podcast but she's 

Alex Howard
03:16 - 03:18
too shy to come up and say hello can't 

Amanda Silver
03:18 - 03:19
she come up and say hello 

Alex Howard
03:19 - 03:19
and i was like 

Amanda Silver
03:19 - 03:23
poking my friends imagine a world in which you were like oh absolutely not. I'm too 

Alex Howard
03:23 - 03:25
busy. I'm like, no, no pictures, 

Amanda Silver
03:26 - 03:29
please. I'm poking my friends, like elbowing them. What's happening here? 

Alex Howard
03:30 - 03:31
And so she came up 

Amanda Silver
03:31 - 03:36
and she was just like early stages going through it. She had like tears in her 

Alex Howard
03:36 - 03:36
eyes, 

Amanda Silver
03:36 - 03:38
you know, and I'm like, you're, I want to give her a hug right 

Alex Howard
03:38 - 03:40
there. I didn't because I was, you know, professional. 

Alex Howard
03:40 - 03:43
But she just 

Amanda Silver
03:43 - 03:47
was just like, I'm listening to it and it's really helping me get through. 

Alex Howard
03:47 - 03:55
Yeah. Yeah. And that's honestly like the motivation we use really to keep going because it's loads of work. It's work I'm obsessed with. 

Alex Howard
03:55 - 03:55
I want to just 

Alex Howard
03:55 - 04:14
do this day in and day out. But it's really good to know that like we actually are impacting people. So for today. Today, our 100th. 100th. Centurians. Yes. Something. Definitely sent something. Sent something. And we're going to do a bit of a retrospective. Yes. I look back 

Amanda Silver
04:14 - 04:18
on all the topics that have resonated most with our listeners. Because we 

Alex Howard
04:18 - 04:20
love the feedback and our favorites. 

Alex Howard
04:20 - 04:21
We love 

Amanda Silver
04:21 - 04:22
the feedback that listeners give us. 

Alex Howard
04:23 - 04:23
So this 

Amanda Silver
04:23 - 04:33
is all sort of the main topics that really resonate with them and that they want to hear, I think, more of. So with that, the first, I would say the first question 

Alex Howard
04:33 - 04:39
that people have when they are struggling in their 

Alex Howard
04:39 - 04:40
relationship. Yes. 

Alex Howard
04:41 - 04:46
This is the really that begins their, could begin their journey. It's the seed. The 

Amanda Silver
04:46 - 04:47
seed. It's the seed. 

Alex Howard
04:48 - 04:50
Yes. Do you plant it? Do you water it? Do you watch it grow? 

Amanda Silver
04:51 - 04:52
Sometimes it grows and you have no control 

Alex Howard
04:52 - 04:55
over it. Also that. Right? It's growing. Yes. And without, 

Amanda Silver
04:55 - 05:09
with or without your help. Yeah. And that's the do I stay or do I go? Yeah. And that I think is one of the hardest, you know, it's one thing to get into once you're in the divorce, you've made the decision and you're working out your finances and parenting plans and all that. You've already, you're already in it. 

Alex Howard
05:09 - 05:10
The train's already going. 

Amanda Silver
05:10 - 05:13
Yeah. But to get onto it and start 

Alex Howard
05:13 - 05:13
that process. 

Amanda Silver
05:13 - 05:24
Do you board the train? And there's so much that goes with it, right? The stigma, which is a big one. Big one. Financial. Yeah. Yeah. So I think if you pull back the 

Alex Howard
05:24 - 05:36
wool, I think the question, because you don't arrive at that question or need to have that question answered unless you've hit some road bumps in your relationship. Like some significant. Significant 

Alex Howard
05:36 - 05:39
obstacles. Yeah. We're taking this lightly. It's not like, oh, he snores. 

Alex Howard
05:40 - 05:40
I'm out. No. This 

Alex Howard
05:40 - 05:41
is like 

Alex Howard
05:41 - 05:48
major significant issues. And really, it's this question of, can I overlook them? Can I work past them? And can we, I should say, 

Amanda Silver
05:48 - 05:51
work through them? Is there still a we? Is there 

Alex Howard
05:51 - 05:53
a we on the other side of whatever that roadblock 

Alex Howard
05:53 - 05:54
is? Right, right. 

Alex Howard
05:54 - 05:57
Right? But it's so much more complex than that. 

Amanda Silver
05:58 - 06:08
And I really think that listening to people's stories and doing the work that we've done over the last five years as mediators has really shown me how difficult that decision 

Alex Howard
06:08 - 06:09
really is. Okay, so what have you learned? I 

Amanda Silver
06:09 - 06:20
have found that it's more difficult than I ever even thought. you see the pain of the person who is in a marriage that is just, it's not terrible. So we're 

Alex Howard
06:20 - 06:21
talking about outside 

Amanda Silver
06:21 - 06:28
the realms of domestic violence and maybe outside the realm of even infidelity. Well, that's another whole 

Alex Howard
06:28 - 06:29
other can 

Alex Howard
06:29 - 06:30
of worms as well. 

Amanda Silver
06:30 - 06:35
But just something that we're just grown apart or we're just, there's no magic. 

Alex Howard
06:35 - 06:37
Death by a thousand cats. That to 

Amanda Silver
06:37 - 06:50
me, that is the hardest struggle that I see my clients go through. It's a painful dragging on. The years pass by and nothing gets better. And they want to leave or they don't want to leave. And it ebbs and flows. And I think that's the hardest 

Alex Howard
06:50 - 07:07
decision for people to make. And I think a lot of that decision is often not even rooted in your own sort of willingness or interest to leave or stay. But there's so much external noise and influence that 

Alex Howard
07:07 - 07:08
can impact 

Alex Howard
07:08 - 07:22
that. And so one thing I wanted to kind of talk about is this idea of identity and how we in relationships sort of take on that persona. Like you introduce yourself as, oh, this is my husband. 

Alex Howard
07:23 - 07:23
This is my wife. 

Alex Howard
07:23 - 07:37
This is my partner. Like you are a spouse or you are a this. Right. And then and then where do you go when your identity is tied to being a spouse? And what about if that choice isn't even yours? Like we didn't even get there. But 

Amanda Silver
07:37 - 07:42
what is. the people who are making the decisions, not the people whose decisions have been made for them. Exactly. There's 

Alex Howard
07:42 - 07:45
two. It's two camps and we can't even do it all today. 

Alex Howard
07:45 - 07:45
So 

Amanda Silver
07:45 - 07:46
stay 

Alex Howard
07:46 - 07:47
tuned for part two maybe of this. 

Alex Howard
07:47 - 07:52
But when your identity is wrapped up, like for me, I'm like, I'm a wife, I'm a mom, 

Alex Howard
07:52 - 07:53
I'm a mediator. 

Alex Howard
07:53 - 07:59
Like we use these titles. We introduce ourselves. Oh, what do you do for work? We're a podcaster. Yeah, exactly. Let's not forget about that one. Our most 

Amanda Silver
07:59 - 08:01
favorite title. People are recognizing us. 

Alex Howard
08:01 - 08:04
But when your identity is wrapped up in being a partner and then 

Amanda Silver
08:04 - 08:05
you're no 

Alex Howard
08:05 - 08:07
longer about to be one, then who are you? 

Amanda Silver
08:07 - 08:12
And part of that family too. It's not just the person you're married to. It's their whole 

Alex Howard
08:12 - 08:13
family, right? You're part 

Amanda Silver
08:13 - 08:20
of this like group of people that you're connected to. And then you're now considering removing 

Alex Howard
08:20 - 08:22
yourself from that whole 

Alex Howard
08:22 - 08:22
connection. 

Alex Howard
08:24 - 08:37
And if you are a parent, these experiences that your children will now have without you, trips without you, right? Seeing parts of the world, going through whatever it is 

Amanda Silver
08:37 - 08:40
that they're going to go through. Meeting people, having friendships of people you don't know. 

Alex Howard
08:40 - 08:41
Yep. And you 

Amanda Silver
08:41 - 08:43
just have to nod your head. And try 

Alex Howard
08:43 - 08:49
and still stay connected to them. And like, listen, this is also a part of your children just growing up and you knowing less and less about their 

Amanda Silver
08:49 - 08:51
lives. Right. Which inevitably happens. Exactly. 

Alex Howard
08:51 - 08:51
That's, 

Alex Howard
08:51 - 09:07
again, a completely different tale. But how do you then say, okay, is this relationship bad enough that I'm willing to sacrifice X, Y, and Z. Right. And often it can be lifestyle, right? Because 

Alex Howard
09:07 - 09:09
raising kids in two different homes 

Amanda Silver
09:09 - 09:11
is a complete game changer for 

Alex Howard
09:11 - 09:11
lifestyle. 

Amanda Silver
09:12 - 09:14
And if you go back to some of our episodes about finance, like we 

Alex Howard
09:14 - 09:15
had one with Eva Sachs, 

Amanda Silver
09:15 - 09:16
where she talks about 

Alex Howard
09:16 - 09:17
the financial components 

Amanda Silver
09:18 - 09:21
that you have to deal with after in some of our family law episodes. That's a 

Alex Howard
09:21 - 09:26
huge one. Huge one. Right. There's not only the cost of the divorce itself, but 

Amanda Silver
09:26 - 09:27
then there's the cost 

Alex Howard
09:27 - 09:32
of the lifestyle that comes with being a single income earner. Right. And maybe you're paying support. 

Amanda Silver
09:33 - 09:39
Maybe you're receiving support. Maybe you're not receiving enough. Maybe you're paying too much. Maybe you're not paying enough. Like, it's just there's so 

Alex Howard
09:39 - 10:13
much. So you embark on this journey with very few answers to very gross amount of questions. You have a million questions and you have no answers. And where in the world do you begin? And then it's like emotion on one side. And then there is the logistics on the other side. Yeah. So it's looking inward, asking yourself, is this a relationship that I want to be in that's serving me, that's bringing me joy? Like I always say, I'm like, is there more joy than pain? 

Alex Howard
10:14 - 10:14
Well, then maybe 

Alex Howard
10:14 - 10:15
you're okay. Are 

Alex Howard
10:15 - 10:16
there things that you 

Alex Howard
10:16 - 10:20
can work, you know, is there willingness to work on these pain points 

Alex Howard
10:20 - 10:21
by 

Alex Howard
10:21 - 10:26
the other person? Yeah. By yourself even, right? Sometimes we just get so tired. I'm like, I don't want to work at that. Some people just 

Amanda Silver
10:26 - 10:32
have had it. That's not a bridge I want to cross. Some people just, they're ready to just throw in the towel because there's nothing left. 

Alex Howard
10:32 - 10:37
And as much as my clients are often like, Alex, have you seen this before? You know, they're very self-conscious, right? 

Amanda Silver
10:38 - 10:40
Is this just crazy? You're like, have you seen this? I'm like. 

Alex Howard
10:41 - 11:00
And yes, and. Like, there's so many similar patterns. But everyone is so unique and their story is so individual. And their children's needs are individual. And their partner's needs are individual. And their own needs. And their family's of origin. And their friends. And like, you're divorcing not just one person. As you said, there's this whole other family, but there's also the friends that you lose. 

Amanda Silver
11:00 - 11:32
Divorce separates friends groups. Often, especially when the conflict is higher. And if there has been some trust, you know, issues, what have you, the friends groups divide. Yeah. And you might lose some friends too. Exactly. The broken home. So I have an issue with this terminology. I can't tell you how many people have looked at me and said, I don't want to leave because I don't want my kids to be raised in a broken home. 

Alex Howard
11:33 - 11:34
Oh, my God. It's so antiquated. 

Amanda Silver
11:34 - 11:40
It's so antiquated. And that just shows you just the stigma that surrounds this 

Alex Howard
11:40 - 11:40
topic. 

Amanda Silver
11:41 - 11:43
But I have to take all my might not to 

Alex Howard
11:43 - 11:44
scream 

Amanda Silver
11:44 - 12:10
because I'm just like, wait a second, stop. I'm like, let's look at your home right now. Okay. You're sleeping in separate bedrooms. Right. You each are fooling around with other people outside of your marriage. Sure. You know, you are one person's cut the other person off from money. You're fighting in front of the kids. Oh, it could be one, two, three, all of the above. Yeah. You're telling me that is an intact home. I'm like, your home is broken. Yeah. At this point, your home is broken. So you need to fix. 

Alex Howard
12:10 - 12:13
Yeah, the divorce actually fixes it. Your broken home. Yeah. And 

Amanda Silver
12:13 - 12:19
so I always have to like sort of correct. And I feel like I'm always lecturing people about this, about this terminology. 

Alex Howard
12:19 - 12:26
Do you know what? I think it's like anything, right? So loaded. Yeah. As we learn and grow, we learn, okay, this is actually a pejorative. We shouldn't be using this 

Amanda Silver
12:26 - 12:28
in our day-to-day jargon. Yeah. 

Alex Howard
12:29 - 12:30
That is definitely one of them. I think it is. 

Amanda Silver
12:31 - 12:32
It's not PC to say that anymore. No, definitely 

Alex Howard
12:32 - 12:34
get that out of your vocab. 

Amanda Silver
12:34 - 12:40
How do you feel about divorcee? Oh, I hate that one too. My name is Amanda and I'm a 

Alex Howard
12:40 - 12:40
divorcee. I 

Amanda Silver
12:40 - 12:46
hate it. It's cringy. It's like, first of all, it ages you. Right. 

Alex Howard
12:46 - 12:46
I feel 

Alex Howard
12:46 - 12:48
like it's so 80s. 

Amanda Silver
12:48 - 12:51
Like, I hate that word. I never 

Alex Howard
12:51 - 12:51
say it. 

Amanda Silver
12:52 - 12:55
Well, I mean, and listen, it's much like coming out, 

Alex Howard
12:55 - 13:03
which I'm also not subscribed to. I don't think you need to come out of anything. I don't think you need to do any, you know, large like banners of 

Alex Howard
13:03 - 13:05
this is my sexual orientation. Yeah, 

Alex Howard
13:05 - 13:11
like who the fuck cares? Is there a word you prefer over divorcee? Single mom? Like that's another 

Alex Howard
13:11 - 13:13
one where I'm like, comes with some heavy 

Alex Howard
13:13 - 13:28
weighted, you know, I think some people do use that as like a look at me. I'm a single mom or dad, whatever. insert, you know, gender here, but like, give me these accolades because my life is so 

Alex Howard
13:28 - 13:28
much harder 

Amanda Silver
13:29 - 13:29
that I 

Alex Howard
13:29 - 13:31
deserve all this attention and praise and 

Alex Howard
13:31 - 13:32
what have 

Alex Howard
13:32 - 14:05
you for being a single parent, which I think you are. Whether you have a co-parent, whether you have financial support or otherwise, you're still doing this piece on your own. You're not sharing time. You also, and it's not even just the negative like yes okay is it difficult to raise kids okay duh that goes without saying yeah when you have someone there who is parenting alongside of you where it's like shit you just got this call from school okay how are we gonna you know iterate to figure out what to 

Amanda Silver
14:05 - 14:10
do emotional load gets shared yeah you get to share that burden i don't have to carry it all yeah and you also 

Alex Howard
14:10 - 14:12
get to share in the wins 

Amanda Silver
14:12 - 14:13
right there's nothing 

Alex Howard
14:13 - 14:17
better than sharing in when you get to sit there at the you know, soccer pitch and go, look at our fucking kids. 

Amanda Silver
14:18 - 14:19
Like we did 

Alex Howard
14:19 - 14:20
that. We did that. 

Alex Howard
14:20 - 14:32
And so it's, it's, it's sort of both ends that you don't get to share in the difficulty or the joy. To me, that makes you a single parent. Yeah. So regardless of all of the other things, I just hate the stigma that comes with it. 

Amanda Silver
14:32 - 14:32
Yeah. 

Alex Howard
14:32 - 14:45
And this, this identity, and we are such a society of just like labels, labels, labels, but for what? So that we can like pigeonhole people into these like easy, tiny boxes that makes our life easier to identify with them. 

Amanda Silver
14:46 - 14:59
I'm here for none of it. I was also, I was out last weekend and I found there's like a pattern that happens. Like, so when I, when I meet people for the first time and I'm like, we're talking, I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm divorced. I get this. 

Alex Howard
15:00 - 15:01
Oh, it'll 

Amanda Silver
15:01 - 15:05
be okay. And I'm like, fuck, it was seven and a half years 

Alex Howard
15:05 - 15:05
ago. Like I've 

Amanda Silver
15:05 - 15:06
moved on, lived a whole life 

Alex Howard
15:06 - 15:07
since then. Like, 

Amanda Silver
15:08 - 15:10
you know, I'm great. Like, how are you? Like, are you okay? 

Alex Howard
15:10 - 15:10
Yeah. 

Amanda Silver
15:11 - 15:13
But it's just all of a sudden it's like, oh. With 

Alex Howard
15:13 - 15:21
a side head. Oh, don't worry. It's a pity. It'll be okay. Yeah. It's a pity. It's pity. Yeah. But then 

Alex Howard
15:21 - 15:21
again. Stop pitying. 

Alex Howard
15:22 - 15:24
A, gross. Because that's judgment. 

Alex Howard
15:25 - 15:25
Yeah. 

Alex Howard
15:25 - 15:30
You're just judging someone else's life with zero information. Zero 

Alex Howard
15:30 - 15:31
information. On what it actually 

Alex Howard
15:31 - 15:32
looks like. On the 

Amanda Silver
15:32 - 15:33
circumstances. 

Unknown Speaker
15:33 - 15:33
Yeah. 

Alex Howard
15:33 - 15:33
You 

Amanda Silver
15:33 - 15:39
know, for some people. Yeah. For some people. Yeah. It is a sad, you know, thing in their grieving. 

Alex Howard
15:39 - 15:39
I 

Alex Howard
15:39 - 15:41
think it's sad always. It's sad always to end 

Amanda Silver
15:41 - 15:42
something that you thought 

Alex Howard
15:42 - 15:42
would be 

Alex Howard
15:42 - 15:43
forever. 

Amanda Silver
15:43 - 15:50
Yeah. But for other people, it's been, it's a catalyst for amazing change. So. Yeah. 

Alex Howard
15:50 - 15:51
No, I hear that. I hear that. 

Amanda Silver
15:52 - 15:55
So when someone says they're divorced, instead say. 

Alex Howard
15:55 - 15:58
So is my PSA. How are you doing? How is that? 

Amanda Silver
15:58 - 15:59
How is that? Yeah. 

Alex Howard
16:00 - 16:00
Just be curious. 

Amanda Silver
16:01 - 16:02
This is literally the answer to 

Alex Howard
16:02 - 16:10
everything is stay curious. Yeah. Just ask a question. It's not that tricky. So yeah. Do I stay? Do I go? 

Amanda Silver
16:10 - 16:14
What episode is that? That was season two, episode nine. Okay. 

Alex Howard
16:14 - 16:14
Yes. 

Amanda Silver
16:15 - 16:18
But do you think we do have to do another episode of that? Like maybe in season four. 

Alex Howard
16:18 - 16:19
Okay. Because, 

Amanda Silver
16:19 - 16:19
you know. 

Alex Howard
16:20 - 16:21
Things change. 

Amanda Silver
16:21 - 16:22
We change. We learn. Yeah. 

Alex Howard
16:22 - 16:24
New information is always coming at us. 

Alex Howard
16:24 - 16:25
Always. 

Alex Howard
16:25 - 16:35
And things can change. We also had, you touched on some money stuff. 

Alex Howard
16:35 - 16:36
We 

Alex Howard
16:36 - 16:57
learned a lot in these last three seasons about money and finances and how complicated it all is. And now listen, for the most part, I outsource my financial portions of my mediations because it is. It's very complicated. It's complicated. It's incredibly important. There are a lot of legalities, a lot 

Alex Howard
16:57 - 16:58
of nuance, 

Alex Howard
16:58 - 17:13
a lot still room for negotiation. So I should say, before I throw myself under the bus, it's kind of two parts, the financial component, right? Because there's the actual calculations of amounts and of property and of assets and 

Alex Howard
17:13 - 17:14
liabilities, 

Alex Howard
17:14 - 17:20
etc. And then there's the really fun bit that you and I get to do, which is the negotiation. That's how we support people. So it's 

Amanda Silver
17:20 - 17:24
like, yes, you are entitled to X, but do you really need it? You're going to 

Alex Howard
17:24 - 17:25
negotiate for 

Amanda Silver
17:25 - 17:26
Y. The legal model versus 

Alex Howard
17:26 - 17:28
the negotiation 

Amanda Silver
17:28 - 17:45
model. Exactly. Yeah, but I think that even people who are just new to divorce, some people don't even know. Like, they need to know the basics. Yeah. Right? Yes, we can get into all these like RSPs and tax stuff and all that stuff. But they need to know that there's a difference between child support and 

Alex Howard
17:45 - 17:45
Section 

Amanda Silver
17:45 - 17:46
7 expenses. 

Alex Howard
17:46 - 17:47
And I can tell 

Amanda Silver
17:47 - 17:47
you some of my clients 

Alex Howard
17:47 - 17:48
come to me and they don't. They have 

Alex Howard
17:48 - 17:49
no clue. They're like, wasn't that included? 

Alex Howard
17:49 - 17:50
I'm like, no, 

Amanda Silver
17:50 - 17:51
it's not. Or 

Alex Howard
17:51 - 17:51
they think 

Alex Howard
17:51 - 17:54
like vacation with dad, mom's on the hook for 

Alex Howard
17:54 - 17:57
paying for part of it. Yes. I'm like, no, you don't have to pay for dads 

Alex Howard
17:57 - 18:03
to go to Mexico. Exactly. Like, no. Exactly. Right? Or you don't have to pay for your kids to go to Mexico with dad. I have to 

Amanda Silver
18:03 - 18:10
pay for half a plane ticket. I'm like, no, you don't. Absolutely not. I'm like, no, that's not how it works. You take the kids to Mexico and you pay for it on 

Alex Howard
18:10 - 18:12
your own. Yeah. So things like that. 

Alex Howard
18:13 - 18:13
Very nuanced. Yeah. 

Alex Howard
18:14 - 18:22
Very nuanced. But really important to, I think, just to go back, not to belabor, but this idea of do I stay or do I go? You really need a lot of information 

Alex Howard
18:22 - 18:23
as well 

Alex Howard
18:23 - 18:47
to make it. That's why I say it's an emotional decision, of course, but it is really also a logistical decision. Know what your life looks like on the other side. Do some budgets, right? Talk to a financial advisor, an accountant, like whoever is a trusted ally in your camp, for lack of a better word, and kind of get some tangible information 

Amanda Silver
18:47 - 18:50
about your legal rights, about your 

Alex Howard
18:50 - 18:50
entitlement. 

Amanda Silver
18:51 - 18:55
Yeah, before you announce that decision to your partner. I'm not saying it would change 

Alex Howard
18:55 - 19:03
your decision. If you need to leave, go. But all I'm saying is do it. Make that decision 

Amanda Silver
19:03 - 19:08
with eyes wide open. But I think it's as you're talking, I think all of these great ideas 

Alex Howard
19:08 - 19:08
of 

Amanda Silver
19:08 - 19:10
the things that they should do. Right. 

Alex Howard
19:10 - 19:11
You should go and get this. 

Amanda Silver
19:12 - 19:17
It's a little Pollyanna in that those are all great. And when you're clear headed 

Alex Howard
19:17 - 19:18
and you 

Amanda Silver
19:18 - 19:20
know what, you're not emotionally burnt out 

Alex Howard
19:20 - 19:21
or 

Amanda Silver
19:21 - 19:41
traumatized or anything like that, that's great. But then you see some people where they're just, they barely get out. They're in such an emotional state of distress that they can't go and make budgets. And they can't go. And that's something they have to do on the other side of it. They kind of have to just jump and figure it out. And so 

Alex Howard
19:41 - 19:43
it's harder, of course, 

Amanda Silver
19:43 - 19:46
that way. But for some people, they just can't. Yeah. 

Alex Howard
19:47 - 19:56
And I think this is where we get back to how different everyone's divorce journey really is. And a reason why we love sharing real life stories. 

Alex Howard
19:56 - 19:57
Yes. 

Alex Howard
19:57 - 20:00
Because you can always find some kind of nugget of similarity. 

Amanda Silver
20:00 - 20:04
There's something similar. There's something. Yeah. You can pull from a 

Ryan
20:04 - 20:04
story. 

Amanda Silver
20:05 - 20:08
Exactly. Ryan has something to say. Speaking of finances, 

Alex Howard
20:08 - 20:08
there's actually 

Ryan
20:08 - 20:23
a recent podcast episode with Dave Portnoy on Club Shay Shay. And he revealed that his ex-wife has full access to his bank account. And it's just no problem. Not a big deal at all. 

Amanda Silver
20:23 - 20:24
Post-divorce. 

Ryan
20:24 - 20:27
Post-divorce. They've been divorced for, I don't know, eight, seven, eight years. 

Alex Howard
20:28 - 20:28
And he 

Ryan
20:28 - 20:33
explained that since she was there for him through his entire journey, and 

Alex Howard
20:33 - 20:33
then eventually 

Ryan
20:33 - 20:43
they just weren't right for each other, he didn't feel right, like not letting her have access to everything she helped him build. And he's like a pretty prominent 

Alex Howard
20:43 - 20:44
figure. So I 

Ryan
20:44 - 20:48
thought that was like an insane divorce story. Like I've 

Alex Howard
20:48 - 20:48
never 

Ryan
20:48 - 20:49
heard of that before. It's 

Alex Howard
20:49 - 20:50
a guy who's worth 

Ryan
20:50 - 20:54
$150 million and apparently his ex-wife is just using his epic card. 

Alex Howard
20:54 - 20:59
The level of trust? I think that's amazing. The level of like altruism in that? 

Alex Howard
21:00 - 21:00
I mean, 

Alex Howard
21:01 - 21:12
listen, I love this. Thank you for sharing. This is the entire reason why we have a net family property calculation. Even if one person didn't work, but supported the other in other ways, raised the kids or didn't or whatever. worked 

Alex Howard
21:12 - 21:14
inside the 

Alex Howard
21:14 - 21:18
home took, you know, career steps backwards to support the partner. 

Alex Howard
21:18 - 21:18
And then, yeah, 

Alex Howard
21:19 - 21:25
what happens on divorce? Well, that's why you're entitled to half. That's the reason it's set up this way. But for just to have carte blanche access? 

Amanda Silver
21:25 - 21:30
Wow. That is cool. I've heard of some people who keep joint accounts where they just, like, 

Alex Howard
21:30 - 21:30
they 

Amanda Silver
21:30 - 21:38
don't really nickel and dime. They just, like, especially if there's one who's a much higher income earner will just throw in money in there and then, you know, they take out. But this is a whole other hole. Yeah, he states, 

Ryan
21:39 - 21:40
like, she could easily just take all of it. 

Amanda Silver
21:40 - 21:41
Like, there's no, like, 

Ryan
21:41 - 21:44
restrictions. there's no like red tape around it like she could just 

Amanda Silver
21:44 - 21:45
run away with 

Ryan
21:45 - 21:47
it if she really wanted to 

Amanda Silver
21:47 - 21:48
but they have a level of trust but they just have 

Ryan
21:48 - 21:52
a level of trust and he just like I just never heard of anything like that 

Amanda Silver
21:52 - 21:53
especially a guy 

Ryan
21:53 - 21:56
who's a prominent figure and is worth millions and millions of dollars 

Amanda Silver
21:56 - 22:00
his lawyers probably told him not to do that oh 100% yeah that's cool wow 

Ryan
22:01 - 22:07
so for all the bad stories we hear on here there's like another yeah it's you don't hear that very often so I thought 

Alex Howard
22:07 - 22:09
that was interesting speaking of Pollyanna here 

Amanda Silver
22:09 - 22:17
comes Ryan I love it with a curveball It's true. I think, do we share a lot of negative stories or do we share a lot of, do we mix it up? What do you think, Ryan? No, negative 

Ryan
22:17 - 22:21
stories, just the people who have negative stories are the people who usually come forward and 

Amanda Silver
22:21 - 22:23
speak. The people who have 

Alex Howard
22:23 - 22:24
good experiences 

Ryan
22:24 - 22:27
usually just go about their day. So I think that's why it sways to more negative. 

Alex Howard
22:28 - 22:34
You know, that's interesting because you're right. If things are going well, why would you come on and do like 

Amanda Silver
22:34 - 22:36
a tell-all? Like the reviews, the restaurant reviews. 

Alex Howard
22:36 - 22:37
You only review when you have a bad 

Amanda Silver
22:37 - 22:41
experience. you're right right people aren't oh i gotta tell you about my 

Alex Howard
22:41 - 22:42
amazing divorce and 

Amanda Silver
22:42 - 22:57
they come on our show and tell you how wonderful it was which fyi please do like i would love to hear that i would love to hear we actually had a few like jessica fru her husband came out as gay met met a man they've separated and the three of them are like co 

Alex Howard
22:57 - 22:58
-parenting and 

Alex Howard
22:58 - 22:59
they love each other together 

Alex Howard
22:59 - 23:00
together and they're so 

Alex Howard
23:00 - 23:01
happy 

Amanda Silver
23:01 - 23:01
and like 

Alex Howard
23:01 - 23:03
amazing was it always 

Amanda Silver
23:03 - 23:07
that way i'm sure that they had their ups and downs, but at the end they came out, you know, 

Alex Howard
23:07 - 23:08
pretty good. You're 

Amanda Silver
23:08 - 23:10
right. There is some hope. 

Alex Howard
23:10 - 23:38
Yeah. We had Natalie Reisman on. Yeah. She is doing well. She's remarried, repartnered, very happy. Yeah. So yeah, there is, and that's a really good point of the journey is going to be difficult. We're not going to sugarcoat that. I think that's why people are always like, I'm so sorry, because it is hard. The divorce itself is difficult. Yeah. But there is life on the other side. Yeah. And if you are listening and you're wondering, it does get better. 

Amanda Silver
23:38 - 23:44
Yeah. And I think that the decision whether to stay or go shouldn't be made because of fear of the unknown. 

Alex Howard
23:44 - 23:46
Yeah. Right. You have to really like 

Amanda Silver
23:46 - 23:54
I think that's also a big one that keeps people in relationships where they maybe shouldn't be is because they're so afraid of all the things that we just talked about. All the logistics, 

Alex Howard
23:55 - 23:55
the 

Amanda Silver
23:55 - 24:02
finances, not seeing the kids, all that stuff. You're right. It's all unknown. But do you know what? What a beautiful 

Alex Howard
24:02 - 24:08
point. What a beautiful counterpoint. I love how we're like, let's have different opposing views. And every time we're like, but wait, I actually really like your view. We love each other 

Alex Howard
24:08 - 24:08
so much. 

Alex Howard
24:09 - 24:13
We disagree all the time. Because you know what? That kind of reminds me a little bit of like analysis paralysis. 

Amanda Silver
24:14 - 24:14
Yes. 

Alex Howard
24:14 - 24:29
When you are inundated with so much information. You can't. You just stay stuck. You can't do it. It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming. Especially when there is the emotional, you know, component of all of this. So maybe less is more. Maybe better to just lead with the heart. Yeah. Listen to your 

Amanda Silver
24:29 - 24:41
gut. Yeah. And you'll figure it all out on the flip side. We have a process in Canada for a reason. It's not perfect, but there's a process. Yeah. So you don't have to have all the answers when you walk out that 

Alex Howard
24:41 - 24:43
door. Exactly. You can hire us and we'll give them to you. There you 

Amanda Silver
24:43 - 24:52
go. But you can. You can hire professionals like us to walk you through it. Yeah. So you don't have to know what's next. 

Alex Howard
24:52 - 24:54
Exactly. We'll tell you. Don't worry. We got you. 

Amanda Silver
24:59 - 25:09
So let's talk infidelity. That is a very, very popular topic. People love. People love to talk about cheating. Love affairs. They love affairs. 

Alex Howard
25:09 - 25:22
And what is that? Is that just like our like yucky side of us that want all this like titillating, you know, goss on the DL? Like I just think. Or is it because it's so freaking common? Well, maybe. I think 

Amanda Silver
25:22 - 25:23
honestly. You think people identify 

Alex Howard
25:23 - 25:24
with it so much? I think 

Amanda Silver
25:24 - 25:29
it's either it's so common or people are so fearful of it happening to them. It's 

Alex Howard
25:29 - 25:30
not ideal. 

Amanda Silver
25:30 - 25:37
It's not ideal. No, it's pretty hard. So people want to, and also the goss, the goss part of it, where it's just like, it's a bit salacious. 

Alex Howard
25:38 - 25:38
Yeah. Yeah. 

Amanda Silver
25:39 - 25:39
Who do they do it with? 

Alex Howard
25:39 - 25:49
How do they do it? How do they find out? They find too when I'm talking to you, like, oh, so-and-so got divorced. Oh, well, this is what happened. Like, they want to explain. Oh, you need a why. You have 

Amanda Silver
25:49 - 25:55
to know why. Such a busy body to need to know why. But isn't that always the question that follows it? So-and-so are 

Alex Howard
25:55 - 25:58
getting divorced. Why? And do you know why? Or 

Amanda Silver
25:58 - 25:58
I knew it. Or I 

Alex Howard
25:58 - 26:00
saw her here. 

Amanda Silver
26:00 - 26:02
I could have seen that coming. Yeah, like when 

Alex Howard
26:02 - 26:07
I'm talking to people or at the beginning of this conversation, what do you do for a living, 

Amanda Silver
26:07 - 26:08
right? Everyone loves 

Alex Howard
26:08 - 26:17
to know that. And I say what I say. It's always like, what's the most common reason you see? People do want to know. Yeah. And they're always like, is it affairs? 

Amanda Silver
26:18 - 26:19
It's not. It's not. It 

Alex Howard
26:19 - 26:30
actually is very uncommon. Certainly in my practice, I have not seen a ton of it. Yeah. It comes out. Yeah. But it's like, well, we were miserable for years and that's why, you know, so-and-so stepped out. 

Amanda Silver
26:30 - 26:39
Yeah, I think it's, I wouldn't say it's the most common. It's definitely prevalent. But there's a lot more reasons that come up first. 

Alex Howard
26:39 - 26:47
For me, well, maybe this is fun, actually. Let's do this. What is the number one reason you see in your practice for divorce? They become 

Amanda Silver
26:47 - 26:52
roommates. I find like, especially as the kids are like a certain age, we always talk about that 8 to 12 

Alex Howard
26:52 - 26:53
sort of 

Amanda Silver
26:53 - 27:09
age where they're out of like the little kid era. There's no intimacy left. There's no interest. All they do is talk about the kids. The spark is gone. And it just slowly builds and builds and builds over time. They have nothing in common anymore. They just grow apart. And it's true. I see it all the time. 

Alex Howard
27:10 - 27:13
Yeah. For me, my typical answer is death by a thousand cuts, 

Amanda Silver
27:13 - 27:14
which is, I think, 

Alex Howard
27:14 - 27:17
the same thing. Yeah. It's just like these little irritations or 

Amanda Silver
27:17 - 27:19
little incompatibilities, 

Alex Howard
27:19 - 27:23
little breakdowns in communication, right? What do the Gottman say? These bids of connection 

Amanda Silver
27:23 - 27:24
that go unanswered. 

Alex Howard
27:24 - 27:27
Yes. And then you stop bidding. yeah you 

Amanda Silver
27:27 - 27:36
start to look you start bothering and then you look elsewhere and we're not talking about infidelity we're talking about to be a friend you're not getting any work a new hobby you take a marathon running well gotta go out for four 

Alex Howard
27:36 - 27:38
hours see ya I'm going to golf for six hours right 

Amanda Silver
27:39 - 27:45
and it just becomes all the things that you're not doing together yeah and the relationship just starts to just die 

Ryan
27:45 - 27:46
why does that happen though I 

Amanda Silver
27:46 - 27:57
think kids are a big part of it kids are huge I really do I think that you know kids take such a toll on a relationship because they take they take everything from you in those 

Alex Howard
27:57 - 27:57
years, 

Amanda Silver
27:58 - 28:04
right? And if you don't have the foundation or just the patience to sort of just ride that 

Alex Howard
28:04 - 28:30
out. I think we don't like sitting in discomfort. Okay. And I think it's easier to quit and go for that shiny new object and that grass is always greener than work on what's here. And of course, listen, always if you're being abused, if you need to go, you go. I'm not saying that. But I am saying that for those we just grew apart. It's not. 

Alex Howard
28:31 - 28:32
They're watering their... But why 

Alex Howard
28:32 - 28:34
can't you grow back together? Grow back 

Amanda Silver
28:34 - 28:35
together. 

Alex Howard
28:35 - 28:53
And sometimes it doesn't work. So listen, I believe in divorce. I think it is there for a reason and incredibly important. And I'm really happy that women on this planet can leave horrible, horrible partners. I just think that if we look at relationships, long-term relationships, as like seasons 

Amanda Silver
28:53 - 28:55
where 

Alex Howard
28:55 - 29:08
it's like, this is our like super exciting romantic period. We're obsessed with one another. We can't keep our hands off each other. We want to do everything together and share everything. And I want to know this person inside and out. And like, we're boning 10 times a day to, we have children. You're 

Alex Howard
29:08 - 29:09
driving this one 

Alex Howard
29:09 - 29:12
there. I'm driving that one here. And I got to work at some point. 

Amanda Silver
29:12 - 29:12
And is there groceries? 

Alex Howard
29:13 - 29:15
And it's just, it becomes that season of your life. 

Amanda Silver
29:16 - 29:16
And 

Alex Howard
29:16 - 29:22
then the kids grow up a little bit more and then they're independent and then they're out at parties and they've got maybe their own new, you know, 

Alex Howard
29:22 - 29:23
romantic engagements 

Alex Howard
29:24 - 29:43
and you're seeing less and less of them. And then you actually do have a new season of an opportunity to turn back to one another. But you have to choose it. It has to be intentional. Right. Where you are saying, I want to go out on a date or I want to go and do something together. Right. Let's learn a new 

Amanda Silver
29:43 - 29:44
ex 

Alex Howard
29:44 - 29:45
together. It's working on 

Amanda Silver
29:45 - 29:47
it. You can't stop. It's choosing to work on it. It's choosing 

Alex Howard
29:47 - 29:51
to work on it. You can't expect it to happen. And it's not fun. not sexy and it's not 

Alex Howard
29:51 - 30:05
always glamorous. And so it's like, eh, I already been there, done that. What about this new other person who gets me real hot and bothered per my earlier era where I felt really good and it was very exciting and very titillating. 

Alex Howard
30:05 - 30:06
And like we couldn't, 

Alex Howard
30:06 - 30:11
you know, there's that chemistry for a reason. And then that chemistry gets boring for a reason too. 

Amanda Silver
30:11 - 30:32
And I see so often where people, and this is back to the infidelity topic, which is, okay, you have your spouse and you're bogged down and you have your debt and your mortgage and your bills and the kids and all the stress and family and all this stuff. And then they meet someone else who they can have a relationship with with none of that. It's 

Alex Howard
30:32 - 30:35
exactly what we were talking about last week. With the 

Amanda Silver
30:35 - 30:40
open marriage. But then they think that the rest of their life with that person is going to be like that. 

Alex Howard
30:40 - 30:41
And then what do 

Amanda Silver
30:41 - 30:42
they do? They hop on over 

Alex Howard
30:42 - 30:43
there, leave 

Amanda Silver
30:43 - 30:45
this. Okay. And then guess what? Same, 

Alex Howard
30:45 - 30:46
same. All your problems. 

Amanda Silver
30:47 - 31:14
It's all the same stuff. Real life hits again. Wherever you go, there you are. Then it's real life. And then there's needs there. And you get married and you have more kids and you've got this. And it all happens again. Let's talk about narcissism. Another very, very popular topic. Very popular. People have requested that we do episodes on narcissists. And we've done a couple. We've done a few. We did Carrie McVoy. 

Alex Howard
31:14 - 31:15
with a little bit of 

Alex Howard
31:15 - 31:15
Nick about 

Amanda Silver
31:15 - 31:16
co-parenting with one 

Alex Howard
31:16 - 31:19
instead of boundaries. Kate Anthony. Kate Anthony. 

Amanda Silver
31:20 - 31:32
We've done a few and probably more to come because it is such a popular topic. Yeah. And I always wonder why. Is it that narcissists in general can't hold down 

Alex Howard
31:32 - 31:33
a relationship? 

Alex Howard
31:34 - 31:35
They're the ones all 

Amanda Silver
31:35 - 31:35
getting divorced. 

Alex Howard
31:36 - 31:39
That's what I sometimes wonder. Like, do I see so many narcissists because 

Amanda Silver
31:39 - 31:43
they just can't? Or does the divorce bring out 

Alex Howard
31:43 - 31:44
narcissistic 

Amanda Silver
31:44 - 31:46
tendencies? Interesting. 

Alex Howard
31:46 - 31:46
And 

Unknown Speaker
31:46 - 31:47
they're just like 

Amanda Silver
31:47 - 31:49
that now, but aren't really generally like 

Alex Howard
31:49 - 31:50
that. So I don't know. 

Alex Howard
31:51 - 32:04
Yeah. And we certainly try to avoid labeling of any kind. Yeah. Unless you're like a diagnosed by a mental health professional. And as we all know, they're not going to be because narcissists won't go. That's the thing. So it's a bit of a catch 22. 

Alex Howard
32:04 - 32:05
But yes, 

Alex Howard
32:05 - 32:14
I think if you have a relationship with somebody, You don't know until you are often very far gone down the relationship 

Amanda Silver
32:14 - 32:15
hole. 

Alex Howard
32:16 - 32:35
And then you're very committed. And then you end up at that stage of do I stay or do I go? But you're only realizing some of those tendencies later on. Right. Because that's the whole thing. They present very well. There is all of that sort of love bombing at the beginning, which for many could look the same as just romance 

Amanda Silver
32:35 - 32:44
and affection. Especially people who are very empathic and really gravitate towards that. They're like the prime target for a narcissist. Yes. 

Alex Howard
32:44 - 32:59
Or maybe somebody who's like, I don't know, anxious avoidant in their love style, right? Where it's like, oh, my attachment is this. And so I'm attracting that certain kind of personality because of what I was lacking in childhood or in whatever. 

Alex Howard
32:59 - 33:00
Again, we're not 

Alex Howard
33:00 - 33:22
therapists, but there is so much more than just saying, oh, my ex is a narcissist. Yeah. Well, sure. and what are the other, you know, pieces of that puzzle. And listen, most of the people that are claiming that, also not diagnosticians, also should not be using labels of any kind. Right. But name it to tame it? I 

Amanda Silver
33:22 - 33:41
don't know. Sometimes they're right. Sometimes they are truly right that they are very narcissistic. But like we've said in other episodes, there's a difference between being a narcissist and being narcissistic. Yes. And parenting or co-parenting with someone of either of those two camps is challenging. 

Alex Howard
33:42 - 33:44
Listen, mediating. Mediating 

Amanda Silver
33:44 - 33:46
is very challenging. With somebody like that. It's very, 

Alex Howard
33:46 - 33:48
very difficult. There's no accountability. Well, and there's 

Alex Howard
33:48 - 33:50
no trust. There's no accountability. 

Unknown Speaker
33:50 - 33:52
There's no upholding of agreements. 

Amanda Silver
33:53 - 33:57
There's no negotiations, really. It's their way or the highway. And you can't negotiate 

Alex Howard
33:57 - 33:58
in that 

Amanda Silver
33:58 - 33:59
realm. I 

Ryan
33:59 - 34:03
think the narcissist episodes are therapy in a way. 

Amanda Silver
34:04 - 34:05
Listening to them, you mean? Yeah, it's for 

Ryan
34:05 - 34:11
the people whose lives have been affected by a true narcissist. It's just so bad. It's so brutal. 

Alex Howard
34:11 - 34:12
And I think other 

Ryan
34:12 - 34:25
people hearing that experience, like, I'm not alone. But also, I think it's on the other side where someone like me, who I think sometimes could do something. I'm like, am I a narcissist? You hear about these stories and then you're like, oh, I'm actually not. 

Alex Howard
34:25 - 34:28
Yeah, you are not. Yeah, I'm actually a good person. It's reassuring. 

Ryan
34:28 - 34:28
Yeah, 

Alex Howard
34:29 - 34:30
it makes you feel better that, like, 

Ryan
34:30 - 34:31
I'm not that. 

Alex Howard
34:32 - 34:32
You're not. 

Alex Howard
34:32 - 34:33
So are you suggesting 

Alex Howard
34:33 - 34:46
that these episodes are so popular and people love talking about narcissism because it makes them feel better? Like it gives them perspective on how hard other folks journey in divorce is and there's maybe not. Yeah. Like for 

Ryan
34:46 - 34:49
me as a man listening to how other men 

Alex Howard
34:49 - 34:50
behave, like I 

Ryan
34:50 - 34:52
feel better about myself. Like I have a lot of shortcomings. 

Alex Howard
34:53 - 34:53
But when 

Ryan
34:53 - 35:01
I hear a lot of these other things that these women are enduring with these men who are just brutal, But it makes me kind of be like, okay, I 

Amanda Silver
35:01 - 35:02
have my shortcomings, 

Ryan
35:02 - 35:03
but I'm not that. 

Amanda Silver
35:03 - 35:05
And maybe that helps people decide whether they stay 

Alex Howard
35:05 - 35:07
or they go. Because maybe 

Amanda Silver
35:07 - 35:11
it gives them a reference point. Some perspective. Some perspective. It helps me. 

Alex Howard
35:11 - 35:30
Right. Doing this job. I'm like, oh, I don't ever want a divorce. It's so hard. Right. Like, it's so hard. It's not even the process itself, which is incredibly difficult and emotional. It's then, I mean, with kids, obviously. What does your life look like after? You're still stuck with this person. So 

Alex Howard
35:30 - 35:30
is it 

Alex Howard
35:30 - 35:31
worth it? 

Alex Howard
35:32 - 35:33
Is it worth going through, 

Alex Howard
35:33 - 35:50
blowing everything up, having these incredibly difficult, invasive, like just gut-wrenching conversations to then still have to see them at fucking drop-off every other week or at the kid's recital and you're like, ugh, this guy or ugh, that 

Amanda Silver
35:50 - 35:50
gal. 

Alex Howard
35:50 - 35:51
But I equate 

Amanda Silver
35:51 - 36:17
it to short-term pain. And listen, I say short-term pain. It could be 10 years you're in this, right? But for long-term gain. Because if you, the alternative is just living in your misery and a suffering in silence. And many do. And many do. Many wait for that 18 year mark. Right. And then sometimes, yes, it is going to be shitty and difficult and the divorce is all of those things. But then you have a second chance 

Alex Howard
36:17 - 36:19
too. Like you have a second chance that whether 

Amanda Silver
36:19 - 36:24
you repartner or you don't, you have a chance to sort of reshape your 

Alex Howard
36:24 - 36:26
life in the direction you want it to go. 

Amanda Silver
36:27 - 36:33
And that can be amazing for people. It could be scary. It's very scary, but it's also wonderful. 

Alex Howard
36:33 - 36:43
Yeah. You know, it's funny. I was in therapy this morning and she asked me, we were talking about something and she's like, can I ask how old you are? And I'm like, yeah, 41. And she goes, doesn't you have a file? 

Alex Howard
36:43 - 36:44
Yeah, that sounds 

Alex Howard
36:44 - 36:47
about right. And I kind of feel like it's the same with divorce, 

Alex Howard
36:48 - 36:49
where again, 

Alex Howard
36:49 - 37:43
going back to my seasons analogy, women, typically, you're coming into your 40s, you're approaching that sort of new awakening, if you will. And it's like, huh, I no longer wish to do this. Right. This, you know, mental load, this emotional labor, this often parenting of your spouse in addition to your children, often at the same time that you're caretaking for your aging parents. And so this like sandwich generation, this time of your 40s, which again is very typical of what I'm seeing in my practice where you're like, no, I'm over it. I've done it for too long. I know how short and precious life really is. And I'm not willing to put up with the bullshit anymore. Whether it's a personality disorder, whether it's different parenting styles, whether it's adultery or financial abuse or whatever. 

Alex Howard
37:44 - 37:46
Name your poison. 

Amanda Silver
37:46 - 37:47
Pick your poison. 

Alex Howard
37:47 - 37:49
Whatever that is, you're just like, I'm fed up 

Amanda Silver
37:49 - 37:50
and 

Alex Howard
37:50 - 38:04
life is too short and I don't want to do it anymore. And I think that really ends up being, for me, what I've learned along this hundred episode journey is just that. Like, how much are you willing to put up 

Alex Howard
38:04 - 38:05
with? 

Alex Howard
38:05 - 38:20
How much are you willing to sacrifice? How much are you willing to give? How much are you willing to, I don't know. I mean, throw it again in your adjective, pick your poison. But at some point, I think everyone kind of hits that edge where 

Amanda Silver
38:20 - 38:21
it's like, I 

Alex Howard
38:21 - 38:38
don't know, man, life's too short. This can't be it. And for some, maybe that's the wrong choice. Maybe they go out and they forge this new path and it's like, oh, dang, I had it so good back then. I didn't appreciate it. Okay. So lesson learned. But do you ever meet people and they have that they 

Amanda Silver
38:38 - 38:40
regret their divorce yeah how often i'm not it 

Alex Howard
38:40 - 38:45
happened not a one not a single time i don't know a single divorcee 

Alex Howard
38:45 - 38:47
who's no i don't think i do yeah interesting 

Alex Howard
38:47 - 38:48
regretted it that's a really good point with 

Amanda Silver
38:48 - 38:51
all the hardships and all the difficulties i 

Alex Howard
38:51 - 38:53
don't know anyone who said you know i wish 

Amanda Silver
38:53 - 38:55
i'd stayed married this person 

Alex Howard
38:55 - 38:58
yeah interesting now 

Amanda Silver
38:58 - 39:00
write us in if you 

Alex Howard
39:00 - 39:03
yeah regret your divorce because i i actually don't mean like 

Amanda Silver
39:03 - 39:06
you're six months out i mean like you're you're six years out. You're 10 years out. Like I 

Alex Howard
39:06 - 39:15
want to, I want a real, you know, sample. Because even those whom it was not their decision to end the marriage, still happily divorced. 

Amanda Silver
39:22 - 39:42
this episode was written and created by alex howard and amanda silver produced edited and engineered by rtf productions make sure to rate and review our show if you loved it and give us a follow on apple podcast spotify or wherever you stream your podcast stay up to date on all upcoming episodes thanks for listening and go easy on us we're not your ex